Beware of people using Greek, when they know no Greek
by Gary - 10/07/15 1:23 PM
This essay could only be written if one already assumes that the RFID chip is the mark of the beast. Revelation 13 makes no reference to this sort of thing.
The author argues that the KJV is correct with "in" and then argues that that implies insertion. But "in" is an archaic use of the preposition in the older versions, when “in†could be “upon†or “on†- as in the sentence that Jesus “sitteth in the right hand of God†in the Apostles' Creed.
The author of this post does not read Greek, as is clearly seen by depending on the King James and the Strong's Concordance. Greek readers use a proper dictionary, not Strong's.
For example: epi/επι does NOT mean "in", "into" or "among" in this sort of context, where it is followed by the genitive or accusative case. Epi + cheiros in the genitive case and metapon in the accusative case means very clearly "upon, on the surface of" the hand and "upon, on the surface of" the forehead.
Charagma does not mean "bite" but "mark, brand [like branding cattle or slaves to show ownership].
All of this is basic Greek information.
The claim of the website that “[Charagma] is an engraved, etched, branded or inscribed 'mark' or 'sign'. Closest to the original sense[…] is the earliest example in Sophocles, where [charagma] denotes the bite of a snake.†If the author had studied the Sophocles text first-hand he would have see that the parallel is moot: there is no serpent in Rev 13 which “bites†anyone but the prophet who "marks" people with a branding to show that they are slaves of the first beast. Nor is Sophocle's reference in one context determinative of what Rev 13 means in an entirely different context. Nor does Isa 27:1 prove the case of the “bite†- the serpent in Isaiah 27 does not “biteâ€.
The Greek of Rev 13 is clear, that the mark (charagma/χαÏαγμα), which means “brand, mark, marking†is “upon the surface of†(epi/επι + genitive) the hand or the forehead. That is the translation taken by the modern English versions, and for good reason - it's not because they are "paid" but because they know Greek. By the way, please, let's not descend into the type of special pleading that the KJV were saints and modern translators are sinners.
Those who know little or no Greek should not write essays which purport to be Greek studies.
RE:Beware of people using Greek, when they know no Greek
by Gary - 10/07/15 8:49 PM
I should also point out that the author reveals that he knows no Greek because he mistaken calls the letter sigma (Ï‚) a "stigma" - a Greek character that was not used before the Middle Ages. Sigma and Stigma are two totally unrelated Greek works.
RE: Beware of people using Greek, when they know no Greek
by Anonymous - 10/08/15 12:23 PM
Mark 8:4 and Matthew 23:2 demonstrate the same genitive use of epi, translated as "in". Matthew 4:6 is another example which is rendered as "in their hands", even in several modern translations. So it's not as clear cut as your superior tone suggests.
The fact of the matter remains - the KJV and prior translations decided to use "in". That choice was only second guessed much later. Calling it archaic does not make it wrong. Or are you implying that they were also inferior scholars of Greek?
I should also mention that stigma (or archaic digamma) is correct and is easily verified since it carries a value of 6, vs sigma which carries a value of 200. Otherwise you wouldn't be able to get a value of 666. Look it up.
What's your interpretation of the mark of the beast?
RE:Beware of people using Greek, when they know no Greek
by Gary - 11/10/15 4:05 PM
Hi, Your tone implies that I am criticizing the translators of the KJV. I am not. The fact is, however, that the use of the preposition "in" has changed since 1611, as I demonstrated. No-one second-guessed their choice, it was a perfectly proper one - in the 17th century. English moved on. That's why the New KJV has - correctly - "receive a mark ON their right hand or ON their foreheads"
Second my point is that sigma and stigma are not the same thing, as the author implies.
Third, epi + the genitive does not mean "in" a chair, but "upon" it. Colloquially we say "he sits in a chair", so a modern translation of Matthew 23 is okay, but the Greek says "upon it", both in Matt 23 and Rev 13. Likewise Mark 8:4, where epi is used (see BDAG) in the sense of "on the surface of" the earth.
Fourth, the parallel you give in Matt 4:6 actually backs up my case - they bear Jesus up "in" or "on the surface" of their hands, but not "injected into" their hands.
My take on Rev 13 is that it speaks of a mark or brand on the surface of the forehead and hand. That's what John records.
RE:Beware of people using Greek, when they know no Greek
by Anonymous - 11/13/15 12:46 AM
So "in" meant something different in the 17th century? Were "on" and "upon" used in the same way? Otherwise I don't follow your logic.
I don't see where the author implies anything about sigma. Here are the various representations of sigma: upper-case Σ, lower-case σ, or in final position ς. And stigma: upper-case Ϛ, or lower-case ϛ. So I can see how you might be getting confused. This is all verifiable on Wikipedia.
There's also an interesting note on the Wikipedia page for digamma: "The name 'stigma' (στίγμα) was originally a common Greek noun meaning 'a mark, dot, puncture' or generally 'a sign', from the verb στίζω ('to puncture')." Notice the use of "puncture". The mark left by a needle prick is usually a "dot".
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Beware of people using Greek, when they know no Greek
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RE:Beware of people using Greek, when they know no Greek
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